SSP's-Future Value

[NELSON]

Originally Posted by ImEvil1

I also think we need to seriously work on getting our own MCA class for these, but I don't think that'll happen anytime in the near future.

May be a little closer than you would think. We talked with the judges about it in Augusta. They were interested in setting a new class but were unsure how to judge the cars. I would be happy if they would at least allow similar cars to be placed with each other.

[ImEvil1]

They do....if you arrive together.

I've heard that some of the MCA officials were very upset with what happened at that show with respect to the SSP Mustangs in attendance, and what was publicly posted about it. I understand that an apology letter was written, so I hope that the issues were put to rest and we can move forward. Establishing a favorable "relationship" with the MCA is important.

With that said, I think we need to figure out how the cars need to be judged, which is exactly what I've been told is the concern of the MCA (much like what you posted).

Anyone can throw a lightbar, or dash/deck lights, on a car with some decals and show it as a "restored" car, but we probably need to assist with setting some sort of standard for them, depending on agency, restoration level, etc.

That's going to be a major project.

[jarhed123]

The only way to start that big project is by taking the first step. I think that if the judges are directed to the sight and given all available materials as far as years, equipment and so on, they could study it and confirm prior to making a class. It would help if several of us would become MCA judges in our class. I am sure some one who is knowledgeable about the years and states could probably judge at least two state cars if not more.

After the first step all else falls into place, almost automatically. All of us, on both sights, could start writing letters to MCA for the new class and offer to become judges on our state vehicle or other states that we are sure to have extensive knowledge about.

One could even devide the judges by pre-87 and post-87 cars.

[ImEvil1]

Marcos,

I agree....we would have to be our own judges, or assist with the judging. I think that the "standard" is the problem, though. There are many of us, on more than just the two sites, that have specific knowledge or experience with certain states, but there are many more cars out there that documentation doesn't readily exist for (for instance, the Kansas car that John M. just purchased).

Then there's the problem of figuring out what is correct versus what isn't, based on who you're asking.

I think it can be done, but we'll have to collectively figure out how the classes could be structured and make sure that we do so in a way that covers the majority of what's out there; from resto-mod type cars through the cars that receive complete, in-service-type restorations.

[NoDrama43]

Originally Posted by NELSON

May be a little closer than you would think. We talked with the judges about it in Augusta. They were interested in setting a new class but were unsure how to judge the cars. I would be happy if they would at least allow similar cars to be placed with each other.

The MCA shows are "sponsored" by local clubs. Some clubs allow similar cars to park together, some do not. There are a myramid of valid reasons for assigning specific parking slots for cars, most all of which make it easier for the club to control the judging, paperwork at entry, etc. If a club wants to go the extra mile and assign blocks of parking spaces for a specific group that is good for all involved, who may want to park in a group. Sometimes it does not work like that. I have been to several MCA shows where the club assigned specific parking numbers and required you to stay in your spot. Regardless of how the parking is set up, we as a group of SSP owners, need to always strive to be professional and stay within the show guidelines.

The issue that arose with the Augusta show pertained to comments posted on the internet regarding club officials parking requirements at the show. The comments were made in fun but at the expense of the individuals running the show. It just goes to show how powerful an influence the internet can have, as it is open for the entire world to view. While the incident may have set us back a notch I do not believe it will have a lasting effect. The apologies were made and I hope everyone will be able to move past it.

As for our own class......I think it is great, however I would NEVER try to require the MCA to properly evaluate the correctness of an SSP restoration as it pertains to equipment, lights, decals etc. They need to judge our cars in the same manner they judge other classes. In the past at MCA shows the judges have agreed to judge the car and not penalize me any points for the extra police equipment installed in the car. I think this works well. Personally I couldn't care less if my car gets judged or not. I don't go to shows for that reason.

[ImEvil1]

Originally Posted by NoDrama43

As for our own class......I think it is great, however I would NEVER try to require the MCA to properly evaluate the correctness of an SSP restoration as it pertains to equipment, lights, decals etc. They need to judge our cars in the same manner they judge other classes. In the past at MCA shows the judges have agreed to judge the car and not penalize me any points for the extra police equipment installed in the car. I think this works well. Personally I couldn't care less if my car gets judged or not. I don't go to shows for that reason.

I'll disagree...I think we'll eventually see it, and that we need to consider the equipment, lights, decals, etc. Our cars are not like the other classes. I think it's really even more difficult to properly restore one, versus the same civilian car, because you not only have to restore the Mustang, but you also have to find the correct equipment for it. We strive to maintain the "correctness" of these cars, and the class you describe above would allow someone to add whatever equipment that they wanted, whether the right stuff or not, and have it be judged against someone who spent significant time and effort finding the correct stuff.

Don't get me wrong....there could still be classes for resto-mod, clones, cars restored to factory-original (without equipment), etc.

Personally, I think that judging would be a good thing, and will only help educate and help us make our cars that much more better (when done appropriately).

[Vintageracer]

If "concourse" judging of a SSP restoration or original SSP car is the goal, the first question in my mind would be at what point when the car was put "in service" do you set a judging standard for SSP cars? Delivery from the factory door or the day the car went into police/government service? In my mind a judging standard should be based upon a standard using the appearance and equipment installed in the car upon the day the car was first put in "police" service. Of course that would also include judging the Mustang itself without regard to the additional equipment at the same time of in service use.

Looking at all the states and Federal agencies that used SSP cars, you would probably need 30-40 judging manuals since LOT'S of agencies used these cars. How and who would create these judging manuals/guidlines? Why the enthusiasts and hobbyists of course! Who better to provide the information than the people who have all the knowledge. There is already a great start online for the establishment of initial judging guidlines for Texas, California and Florida cars.

How to "judge" the cars is the same issue that brought about a small group of individual's interested in restoration, preservation and detailed knowledge of early Corvettes to start NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society). That group started with less than 10 people and today has over 15,000 families as members. That's TWICE as large as the Mustang Club of America (MCA)! NCRS is TOTALLY driven by originality of a Corvette on the day is left the factory. That standard would not work with a SSP Mustang but I am sure that some sort of judging standard can be established IF that is the direction that SSP owners wish to go with regard to judging. Or maybe even a bigger question, does the SSP enthusiast really want that level of judging?

I personally question the idea that MCA is the right group with which to "hook up". Yes, a lot of Mustang shows are MCA shows but there are also the SVT groups and other late model groups that are more interested in Fox body cars than the MCA. Have you looked at a lot of the MCA memebership lately. I'll tell you what you see, Fat and 50+ plus years of age! Go to most MCA Mustang shows and that's what you see. Is that inherently bad? Absolutely not! It is just an observation that in general people of the 50+ age group are NOT generally Fox body enthusiasts. It seems to me that you would want to associated with a much younger crowd that is mainly interested in the newer Mustangs not the vintage Mustang crowd. MCA is not unique in this problem of older membership. Many "vintage" car marques will see a lot of their membership die or lose interest in the marque in the next 10 years. This is a natural progression of the hobby.

Having had a long term friendship with a MCA board member and a "little" knowledge of the "polictics" of the MCA, I find that the MCA is not very progressive in their thinking about the future of the club or their membership. I would think the MCA should have 3-5 times the memebership they currently have given the amount of Mustangs sold by Ford since 1964 and in particular the great interest in the new Mustang. MCA may have a big name in the hobby but from my perspective, MCA "appears" to be a much smaller player in the mustang hobby than one would think. In my opinion, the SSP crowd would be better served hooking up with a more progressive group who's interest lies in Fox body and newer Mustangs. Having said that, I am sure there are others far more knowledgeable than I that could make suggestions about the clubs/groups that new Mustang owners join and participate with.

I am sure that my views will "ruffle" a few feathers however that's what great about the hobby and those who participate. We can all have and express our "opinions". Given that the "restoration" interest in SSP cars really is in its infancy, a well thought out plan for the future will benefit all SSP Mustang owners.

Comments or responses?

[ImEvil1]

I never used the "concours" wording, but I see where you are coming from.

I mentioned the factory-as-delivered cars in my post above, which I'd think could be a different class for those wanting to go that route.

I like the statement about "initial" judging guidelines, especially for those cars that we know the most about, and have the most documentation for. These would have to be flexible and able to be updated as necessary, just like the other guidelines. I would think that we could use a "baseline" for guidelines dealing with restoration equipment, based on agency, time period in-service, etc. That way, we wouldn't be nit-picking ourselves with the way equipment was mounted, for example, but more focusing on the "correctness" of what's in the car as a whole, be it period-correct and a guesstimate (such as the Kansas example), or verifiable equipment that would have been used in-service (like the CHP or FHP equipment). Personally, I'd like to see things go that route as opposed to focusing on which fasteners on the car are the wrong finish, etc.

I'm not involved in the MCA, but aren't they the sponsors of most of the major Mustang shows?

I think you made some good points.

[Vintageracer]

Your statement about being flexible is key! The Corvette bunch judgine standards have evolved in many ways over 30 years of judging. Heck, cars that were judged "top flight" 10 years ago would barely 3rd flight today. The knowledge base has changed that much. Any SSP judging guidlines would have to be a "living document" instead of being viewed as hard and fast rules of "the way it was"!

MCA is the quote "sponsor" of a lot of shows because the local club putting on the show is a MCA affiliated club. I just think there may be better alternatives.

[bmt336]

Why not 3 simple catagories for SSP's.
1. Concours-as in exactly as it left the Ford plant. All FACTORY installed Ford equipment as in ground straps, the correct alternator, etc. No agency installed equipment. This allows for people who appreciate the special nature of these cars, but don't want the attention a marked unit may bring to an un-sworn owner.

2. In service- As the car was the first day with it's first agency, or as close as can be dtermined, it went into service. That is the light bar, radios, markings, etc.

3. SSP resto mod- Any made up car. This could be a non-SSP made to look like an SSP or one from one agency restored to look like another agency car.

Of course many here will be able to be more detailed about what would be what for each class, but that seems to cover the broad strokes.