Thanks Jim. Hope the weather is starting to improve where you are
we are headed out to a car show in Cave Creek Arizona tomorrow
should be at or near 90 deg. regarding the MOVIE CAR markings
I seen in Phoenix the other day...........
a BMW marked in Euro police car type tape/decals
had a covered light bar that said MOVIE CAR?
turned left before i could get a Picture.

Hi Andy! Nice to see you around. Hope you enjoy the show.

Jim, that was an extrememly well-worded comment about the responsibility involved with owning/operating an antique/classic police vehicle. GSPI is right - it's how our actions are perceived by the public that carry weight. It's obvious that some SSP owners have differing opinions as to what's acceptable behavior and what is not. Given that individual states have different laws about what is allowed and what is not, it becomes difficult to develop any common sense guidelines for owning/operating our SSP's. But by having an intelligent open discussion, hopefully we can bring light to an important topic related to our hobby.

I'm proud of the fact that we are able to do that here. We've all made mistakes, and we'll also make more before it's all said and done. The ability to talk about it *intelligently* and *openly* is what makes us different. That, and being willing to go the extra mile to stand up to others who can't seem to do the right thing.

Anyone want to see a new thread on the topic?

Since the original intention of this thread flows nicely into responsible usage of our SSP's, I retitled this thread instead of creating a new one.

The topic shouldn't be seen as some folks setting themselves up above other SSP owners. This isn't intended to bash anyone in particular, but instead to discuss the importance of making sure our actions are not perceived by anyone in such a way that it is harmful to our hobby.

Sounds good to me....and I don't think we'll have a problem like that here.

I posted this at copcar.com, but I wanted to share it here since it's the same subject matter:


I'm new to the hobby, but I have a lot of experience with patrol cars. I was a law enforcement explorer (scout), security guard driving a marked 'patrol car', a local police officer, and a state trooper. You're alway under the microscope when you're driving a patrol car. The public is quick to call in a complaint on anything you do in a police/state patrol car. The police watch waiting for the 'wannna be's' in the security cars to mess up.

The problem with old police cars is a combination of the above. If you screw up, the public see's it and it looks bad on the agency you're car is displaying. This upsets the public and the agencies. Signs like 'Out Of Service', 'Not In Service', 'Movie Car', 'Show car', etc, doesn't meen anything to the public. To them they just think it meens you're not on duty. You leave a black eye on the organization you're not even associated with.

Personally, I don't think a cruiser that's permanently marked should be allowed to drive on the road (unless in a parade). If it's permanently marked, trailer it. If you want to drive it to the shows, use magnetic markings. We should be more concerned about protecting the image of the agency we're displaying, than the paint on our cars. I see people say they don't want to use magnetics because of the effects it has over time on the finish, so they permanently mark them and then use signs and painters tape.

The Ohio State Highway Patrol copyrighted their logo. You can't even get it for model cars anymore. If the collectors screw up to many times, all the other agencies will follow. People could kill this hobby before I can even get a chance to show my car. There could come a day when you need a license from an agency to display their logo.

I'm sure my comment will not be well received by some people. But mark my word, if we cast a bad image on an agency, they will take steps to protect their image, and keep you from tarnishing it.

Personally, I wouldn't care if agencies had exact specifications your car had to meet, had to be inspected, had to have their license to display present at all times, and had to have a 'pass' indicating the date and location wherever the car was being displayed. It's their logo, they should know when and where it's being displayed.

Now, I don't want it to come to that. Do you?

Looks to me that we are all on the same page here.

X1000. Appreciate the comments. Keep 'em coming.

I have been watching the CCdC thread pretty closely. It seems as though they are also on the same page as we are here. At least they react the same to some of situations we find ourselves policing.

That's also a good thing. They've been doing this longer than we have, and the reputation they have amongst LE agencies is a very professional one. These are the guys getting invites to shows that most others aren't. They run a tight ship and it shows.

As some of you know, I am an Administrator on www.mustangforums.com. I posted there about being banned from the other SSP forum this past week for privately questioning the decision by the forum staff to scuttle the discussion about (ir)responsible use of old police cars in the eyes of the public. (yes, my account was passive-aggressively stripped of its account settings, i.e. banned)

One of the other Admins on MF asked me what the big deal was about some guy acting out, thinking the worst that could happen is that he'd get a ticket. I thought my response to him really explained why some of us are so concerned about that type of activity, so I wanted to share it here -

The Admin at MF asked a legitimate question because he is not part of the police car collector group. But it should be common sense to those of us who own/restore/operate an out-of-service police car or clone.

Bill,

Since you are an admin on a site with over 150,000 members, I know that you have the experience and ability to deal with disagreements in a mature and responsible manner. That was one of the reasons I asked you to help moderate here. The fact that you were banned for privately disagreeing with the forum staff across the way doesn't surprise me, but it also serves to reinforce the notion that certain members of the hobby are in it for the wrong reasons.

Copy of my letter from Col. of Colo. State patrol to the Col. of th FL. state patrol.
I worked promoting the CSP for some 12 years and NEVER A PROBLEM!!!

VERY nice, Ray. :)

The case law has changed things a bit, and you will not go directly to jail just for being there, but all it takes is running into the wrong person and having to deal with a million questions. I plan on trailering my FHP everywhere anyway. It's a safer way to go. I went to the MCOH show today and saw a '69/'70 Boss 302 with a rearranged front end. Guy was driving it to the show and a drunk driver hit him, then tried to flee the scene.:eek:

That is a nice recognition by the CSP Colonel and it shows trust. Now what was Colonel Czernis' response?

Welcome Home Bill
you are with friends.
Now if you can just get your $ back from
that other SSP forum as i did (YES i got it back)
when i was denied access to the site.
http://i56.tinypic.com/33dilic.jpg
I applaud Mikes decision to make you
a Moderator here.
I think you are doing a Great job!
Again Welcome Home.

I was pretty proud of their confidence in me and as the the FL. Col's. response!!!
Never heard a word back!! and figure I never will!

Andy, my $20 was refunded before I knew that my account was being banned.



Ray, that is a great letter!

I figured as much from FL. They had really put the clamps down when one of the collector whackers I and many at CCdC had experience with named Bill Parks tried to help put together a show and "assisted" the show organizers from PCOOA or EVOOA by doing some PR with FHP in 1999... Here's his photo from that era:

http://images114.fotki.com/v634/phot...MFbadge-vi.jpg

With his list of whackerisms (in his delusional mind he thought he was a Vietnam vet and a former LEO and for that matter an attorney too), he basically got a response from them with a simple and strongly worded, "any car that shows up as a police vehicle will be impounded and confiscated from it's owner, trailered or not and then the owner will be cited for impersonating". That didn't separate out the FHP "restorations" either, that was everybody.

Thanks to one moron, FHP is probably never going to respond to you or anyone else in the hobby at all.... and that's one of the real stories behind why FHP clamps down on the collectors.

So are things the same in Florida in regards to clamping down on those who display a restored police car at a show?

When we did our 2005 Golden, Colo. show, Larry Andrinuas and I went in the Col. office in Denver, told him what we wanted to do.
He said that based on my and Larry's past support of the patrol he would give anyone who registered, a letter stating they were coming into CO. to show their cars. Now this meant they still wanted prec,ahtions taken with covering decals and lights. After the show we visited with him again and asked how we (the Club) was viewed by the troopers and public to which he responded NO PROBLEMS at all!
He was such a gentleman, he, the COL. came to our show and judged the entries in person in full uniform and it was HOT-HOT-HOT.
He then came to our banquet that night presented awards and spoke.
What a gentleman and friend of the hobby this man was. I say was as he has since retired.
The Col. now, seems as responsive also. We have a Colo. Maj. who is also a car person.
We had 3 motorcycles and one patrol car as escort in our cruises.
I feel uneasy traveling in IL,CA,IA, even covered.
Another reason for removing lightbar,is, BETTER GAS MILEAGE.

Great experiences Ray....and nice letter too! Something to be proud of receiving. I'm real proud of the letters I have from the MSHP Superintendent...past and current one.

I am perplexed as to why someone would pretend they are a cop. I guess it is like the person that pretends they are a soldier or served in the armed forces.

just wierd fellas....I don't get it.

No, not in today's world. I've personally seen "restored" FHP Mustangs at the Silver Springs show, and nobody got their car impounded or towed.

A member here had an incident awhile back with a Miami-Dade officer over his car, but he ended up on the winning end of the deal. It was still a hassle for him, but the officer had to retire over the whole deal. He was definitely in the wrong.

There are alot of people out there who have mental problems....personal issues....complexes, or whatever. :shrug:

Parks has had police attempt to Baker act him in FL before because of mental issues. He is mental of sorts but we've assisted many departments in helping in prosecution and tracking as he is a hazard to females from our experience. He's highly abusive to people that disagree with him and he's also very litigious when it comes to LE departments that he has contact with. And for what it's worth, he's still a collector of old police cars and police items. He now resides in CT. Steer clear of this guy as he's nothing but trouble.

Taking Pictures/Video
 

One thing that can potentially get the owner of a SSP in trouble, or make us all look bad, is taking pictures or videos and posting them online. There were a few examples I found where the owner was acting inappropriately, but I didn't want to give them additional publicity by posting those pictures/videos here. The types of questionable behaviors caught on film included:

• Being shown with alcohol in-hand during parking lot light shows.
• Owner (non-LEO) behind the wheel wearing a "county mounty" hat with a beer in-hand.
• Simply driving around on public streets with the emergency lights uncovered.
• Assuming the position on the fender of a police car.
• Staging a pull-over with lights/sirens and the owner(s) as actors.
• In-code pictures showing the owner/driver peeling out to respond to a call.
• Personally re-enacting an arrest with handcuffs next to a SSP.
• Justifying their bad behavior because they are a LEO.
• Displaying a badge at a show (a real LEO knowns not to flash his badge around).

All of the above situations demonstrate a lapse in judgment, albeit some things are certainly worse than others. But it reminds us that we need to be careful about what we capture on film.

Over the weekend, I spoke with a fellow SSP owner that we all enjoy having here - Andy. Most of us know Andy for his comedy, but he is VERY careful about what he does with his '85 CHP Mustang. I recently spoke with Andy about the responsibilities associated with owning/operating a SSP, and got his permission to use his good example as a reference here. Some time ago, Andy posted a couple of pictures of his CHP taken out-of-state along the side of the highway, which are shown here:

http://www.mustangcollective.com/ima...9c4911b6d6.jpg
http://www.mustangcollective.com/ima...9c49179645.jpg

Andy was very quick to note in his original thread that he never drives on the street with the logos/lettering/lights exposed. For the pictures, he selected the location and camera angle, and then quickly removed the covers on that side to snap a few pictures. Once that was done, he covered up that side, changed angles, removed the coverings, snapped a few more pictures, and quickly got the car covered up again. Taking pictures of a fully marked car on a public roadway can turn into a bad situation too, but Andy is VERY considerate about displaying his car in the public eye and included information about the care he used to take the pictures.

As was stated previously, the laws vary by state. So it is difficult to establish a set of guidelines to cover all situations. Hopefully, we will give some thought to the circumstances we may find ourselves in, and exercise good judgment when the time comes.

Laws are different all around but the result is the same. These vehicles are highly illegal and any horsing around can become an issue! People seem to not get it, I love the idea of "acting" like the next guy in the movies but only when it is in a controlled environment such as when some of my fellow car owners are brought into shooting a funny shoe commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWoPybzPUiY

Note the use of "Metro" police instead of Chicago Police as CPD does not condone the use of their name (except in Chicago Code). One of the young officers in the background is an actual CPD officer who actually owns one of those cars. My fellow collectors have also been called to act in Chicago Code, Barbershop 1&2, the old Hillstreet Blues, etc. That's all and no where else!

It still seems to me to be common sense but then again, common sense as of late has not been so common!

Laws are different in different States
but COMMON SENSE should always
be in check ALWAYS
one thing that really annoy me it that when someone tries
to apply their States Laws to your car Not in their state.
Kinda like how the news anchors in N.Y. think
that the world revolves around their life style
and the East coast.
I don't know about you guys but i have never had a problem
with ANY official in any State i have traveled to or through
and this way of marking my car in transit says to the casual observer
this is NOT A POLICE CAR
Maby in California it's not good enough
but guess what
I Aint in California


http://i51.tinypic.com/vfv4w4.jpg

Andy,

It does come down to using common sense in most cases. But also, each of us as SSP enthusiasts has a different definition of what activity is acceptable and what isn't. That's one of the reasons for this thread - to publicize that we need to be thinking all the time about how our actions are perceived by others. Perception IS reality.

Let's take an example. Some may view parking lot light shows as OK. I mean, we have the lights, so we might as well use them, right? Others (like most of the LEO members) would disapprove of civilians (or off-duty LEO's) using emergency lights in public settings which are not authorized (a parade or a car show are examples of an authorized situation).

It would be impossible for everyone of us to agree 100% of the time as to what activity is condoned and what isn't, but this open discussion may be of benefit to those who hadn't given sufficient consideration to the topic.

HAHA! Maybe you're right Andy. But at least we are getting the message out there.

Apparently the horse is not dead yet, so let me comment in no uncertain terms -

As SSP enthusiasts, EACH OF US has a responsibility to ensure that our actions are properly perceived by the public. These old police cars are not expensive toys that can be used without regard to local laws or common sense. If we see something in person or published online that is questionable, then ALL OF US should be willing to discuss the events in question. There is nothing wrong with debating topics important to our hobby, as long as the comments are respectful and are made within the parameters of the forum rules.

This isn't a matter of anyone in particular setting themself up as an enforcer of SSP etiquette. EVERYONE needs to be proactive, or situations will occur that lead States one by one to enact legislation that prohibits ANY marked/lighted former emergency vehicle from being registered. It's already happened guys, so unless you want these SSP's to become strictly trailer queens then you need to be vocal. It is the responsibility of every SSP owner to police our hobby!

Also, it goes without saying that positive examples of using our SSP's should also be recognized. Nice job at the track, Aaron! That's a very decent ET for a stock 5.0L, and I'm sure the crowd enjoyed the lights and siren.

If someone criticized me about my conduct at a show and I disagreed with it, I would state my reason for thinking so as we are all entitled to our opinions. The raging, temper tantrum, lunacy going on in that feeding frenzy is just another indicator that they know they screwed up. All the banter is just an effort to rationalize, make excuses, and remove the focus from the issue.

Changing the subject, talking about "legal ownership", the lawyerisms, "quality" cars, and all the testosterone filled rhetoric isn't going to succeed in taking the focus off the issue that is addressed in the you tube video I posted. I am not going to let the focus of CONDUCT IN PUBLIC be overshadowed by whether or not I legally owned a car, or who led what parade 6 years ago. That is the purpose of this post, to restate the issue at hand, that I think is damaging to our hobby.

When a person watches the video, you can formulate your own opinion about whether you think it promotes our hobby in a positive or negative way. It is just that simple. Public conduct is the issue here. You either understand the importance of it or you don't. You either agree with me or you don't, that's your choice.

PS... Aaron.....I have ZERO issues with your conduct with your car on a racetrack. Be careful though. That is a pretty rare car and I know very well how Gregg Henderson feels after crashing his. I got a bunch of the parts off his 89 FHP car... :)

Bottom line...the few that don't get it, aren't ever going to. The only ones doing any "enforcing" will be the local LEOs that I will not hesitate to call if I see inappropriate and illegal activity whether at a show, host hotel, or points in between. Not only will I call, but I'll request contact. I would encourage anyone else who sees this type of activity to do the same. Then, those who think they know the difference between semi-public and private property, who think that they can do whatever they want to with their "toys", can attempt to explain themselves to a "real" police officer.

I think we've put this message out loud and clear, and any further discussion is pointless.

Thanks Guys, I didn’t figure anyone would have a problem with the car at the track but you never know.

Our local 1/8 mile track (Chandler, IN) had its first test and tune night for street cars this past Friday. I usually don’t go out to this track because I am not a huge fan of 1/8 mile racing; I grew up believing drag racing was done on a 1/4 mile strip. Sorry tangent, anyway a few of the local car clubs went out to grudge race their street cars and I decided to take the AL car out just to see how it did. Out of all of the Mustangs I have owned I never ran one of my SSP’s down the track because I always had some type of race car and there was not much point in running a SSP. As soon as I showed up and uncovered the car people flocked to it. When I turned my tech card into the tower they requested me to run the lights and sirens, I told them I had planned to. I ended up running against 2 of my friends and they knew I was going to run the lights and sirens so it was not unexpected to them (last thing I want to do is scare someone when they are going 70-100mph)

I had a really good night and this was the first time a lot of my friends have actually seen the car move with everything on. The car put down a 9.50@75mph with a 2.18 60ft. This is on a 100% stock car down to the air filter with a full tank of gas, spare tire, and all equipment in the car and running, this should be about mid 14’s in the 1/4 probably right around 100mph. I can see why these were feared back in 1980’s. That was pretty fast for the day. This by no means is a drag car and I understand the risks of racing. I have done it for many years, this just happened to be the perfect night to take the car out and not have to line up with 5 sec. dragsters to just get an idea of what this cars actual performance is.

A video from one of my buddies:
http://youtu.be/-kioEjqgZAE


http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1363063_n.jpg

Aaron, THANK YOU for posting this video up. As I said before, it is just as important to recognize the positive ways to promote our hobby as it to comment on the things not to do.

Speaking solely as a SSP enthusiast, I think your trip down the track with the lights and siren on promotes a positive image of our hobby. Who knows what interest you may have sparked for somebody watching? You may have made a lifetime memory for a youngster who will come into the hobby later in life. You may have caused an adult to reflect upon a time when he remembers seeing these cars patrolling the highways, and cause him to search for one now. These are GREAT things, and it's far different than being a look-at-me moment where it's more about the owner than honoring the heritage behind these old police cars.

I also ran my SSP down the track back in 2009, and you will likely receive the same comments I did regarding the risk involved. That's OK, cuz none of us want to see anything happen to that beautiful SSP of yours. Glad to see you are enjoying the fruits of your labor.

:2thumbs:

great video Aaron. I was invited to take mine down the track Saturday at Indy but I wasn't sure the old 84 was up for it... lol The car runs like a sewing machine but I am not sure how much she can take. Of course with those little skinny tires I could have probably made a little noise.

thanks for posting it up.

Very nice. :2thumbs:

Fun time Aaron...looking forward to seeing the AL SSP in KC.